We handed over our podcast reins to Polly Neate, CEO of Shelter, and Tessy Ojo, CEO of The Diana Award, for a miniseries that will discuss what privilege and anti-racism mean for the charity sector and the role of charity leaders in facilitating a shift of power both in our sector and more widely.
If you missed the first episode, listen to it here
In the second episode, Tessy and Polly talk to Sarah Hughes, CEO of the Centre for Mental Health about the importance of making yourself vulnerable, being part of the ‘bigger picture’ and practical ways to share privilege.
Scroll down for the full transcript
As a sector we’re not here just to point out what’s wrong, we’re actually here to change it. And that has to start with us as leaders.
Polly Neate
It’s not just about our internal learning and shifting to being an anti-racist organisation, but also that we know in the mental health space and sector and in society, that if we don’t actually deal with this, then we’re making a large proportion of our people mentally ill.
Sarah Hughes
Transcript
Tessy Ojo:
Hi, I’m Tessy Ojo, I’m the chief executive of The Diana Award.
Polly Neate:
Hello, I’m Polly Neate, and I’m chief executive of Shelter.
Tessy Ojo:
And together we are hosting a mini series on the word privilege.
Tessy Ojo:
Great. So thank you so much, Sarah, for joining us today, I’m just going to kick off by really introducing ourselves. And then just give a bit of context into how we came about this conversation about privilege. So my name is Tessy Ojo and I’m the chief executive of The Diana Award. Polly, I’ll hand over to you. And then we can…
Polly Neate:
So I’m, co-hosting this podcast with Tessy and I’m Polly Neate. I’m the chief executive of Shelter, and we’re going to let our guest, Sarah, introduce herself in a minute. Tessy is going to just talk a bit about why we had this idea of this podcast.
Tessy Ojo:
So over the summer, or before the summer, as everyone would know, we had a moment where a young man was killed in America, a young man called George Floyd. And that led to protest across the globe, including here in the UK, really highlighting the inequality, the treatment of Black people in the UK in particular. What was useful, I suppose, about that moment was firstly, it came at a moment where all of us as a nation we’re home dealing with COVID, which meant that we, we, we saw this video of this brutal murder of this young man and really allowed all of us begin to… Especially people of colour, begin to reflect on our lives and how we feel that, and our experiences of being Black in the UK. I suppose, that led us to… I’m lucky or we’re lucky to be part of a, a group of chief execs who actually began to meet at the very start of lockdown to firstly, talk about COVID and its impact on our organisations, but also to create some form of support bubble. But I suppose also what happened was through this Black Lives Matter moment, it allowed us as a group of chief execs to come together and really begin to talk about what does it mean? What does this mean for us? It, you know, what does this mean for our members of staff who are from a Black community and how do we, you know, the one thing that brought us into the sector was to tackle inequality. And I think the one thing that really stood out for all of us as leaders was that we were faced with that same inequality existing, not just in our own society, but also in our organisation. So that led us to various conversations. We jointly agreed that actually what we should do is to explore the issue of privilege. And what does that mean for us, especially as charity leaders. That’s a long intro. So I’ll let you introduce yourself and talk a little bit more about, about this.
Sarah Hughes:
Yeah. So I’m Sarah Hughes, I’m the chief exec at the Centre for Mental Health. We are a mental health organisation that is really focused on equality and justice in mental health. We don’t provide services, but we’re a not-for-profit think tank. We often sit in darkened rooms with data and research to try and make sense of what’s going on in the world. I have to tell you over the last three years, while I’ve been in this post, that’s been really interesting in relation to the whole issue of inequality. That’s been our primary focus and I would have to acknowledge that the last six months has been particularly painful and difficult to do this work. I mean, it’s been tough.
Polly Neate:
I think it’s quite interesting that… I felt that making ourselves a bit vulnerable actually enabled us then to share some vulnerability in relation to Black Lives Matter and how that made us all feel. And certainly for me, it was a really pretty shaming realisation that I had dropped a ball that I absolutely had no excuse to have dropped. And that the only reason I could possibly have dropped that ball by which I’m talking about making Shelter an anti-racist organisation, and I’d even consciously thought about being a feminist organisation. And yet I’d managed to drop the ball of being an anti-racist organisation. And the only way you can even talk about dropping that ball is if you have the privilege to be able to drop the ball, if you know what I mean, and just even just sort of admitting that in a group of CEOs, it was good to be able to be that honest and vulnerable. And I guess that’s part of what we wanted to be able to do with these conversations, was to try and say to our colleagues CEOs in the sector, you know, we have to admit this stuff and get to grips with that. Otherwise we are not going to move forward. Do you know what I mean, Sarah?
Sarah Hughes:
Completely. Because it feels like almost, I was reminded of the truth and reconciliation trials, you know, that sort of sense of you have to absolutely face up to what’s happened before you can move on. And, and I think that, you know, my response to the events, the murder of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor have, have always been sort of, you know, a distress, you know, one of complete shock and shame and over the summer, I think that I really related to that point around how the hell have we allowed this to happen? How, you know, how, how have we got here? You know, I personally had always highly rated myself as somebody who was anti-racist and almost got to a point where I didn’t even have to question it. And I think that’s the, that’s where my shame comes from, which is a complacency and a, the privilege of complacency that, you know, the sense for me of thinking, you know, well, I’ve nailed this stuff. And if I’ve nailed this stuff in my own mind, then the impact in my organisation, you know, what it looks like, what it feels like would be different. There’s an absolute truth in there. The question for me becomes how and why did we drop that ball. What’s happening? Because I absolutely know that I have spent a large portion of my life and my professional life shouting very loudly about these issues. But I do know, and I absolutely reflect and look back over the last 10 years, and will say, I fell into a bit of a kind of, nothing’s going to go back to a place where people’s lives are at risk at that level. Surely. Despite the evidence that, that wasn’t the case and then an absolutely brutal murder in front of all of our eyes, you know, there’s no hiding from that. It’s a deep shame that we must hold and acknowledge and talk about.
Tessy Ojo:
Interesting you used the word and I know you, it feels like you’ve used it about three or four times the word shame. I want to explore that a little bit because I hear that. And I’ve heard people use the word shame a few times, and I think there is something about that acknowledgement of we have failed. How do we move people on, how do we move on from that shame?
Sarah Hughes:
You know, one of the things that I thought about before we were talking, to talk today was I’m very aware that by holding onto that shame and by talking about it, it’s very easy for that to feel like, and to be perceived that you’re centering yourself in the problem. And some of that, and I don’t know whether this is what you’re alluding to Tessy, but some of that ongoing discussion about my shame is somehow taking away from the reality of actually what this racism and violence has done to you and my, you know, my Black brothers and sisters around the world. And, and, and, and so I think that that’s actually a really important point at which we can’t centre ourselves in this problem, but how do we take responsibility for it? And I think that’s the, that’s the dilemma.
Polly Neate:
I think as leaders in our organisations, it’s important that we’re accountable for not just going on about how bad we feel, but for actually changing things. And I think, you know, we have to be accountable to our Black colleagues for actually moving things forward. In the charity sector I think we’re good at thinking we’re good at virtue. And we’re actually also good at beating ourselves up. And neither of those two things are particularly useful. I do agree with you Tessy. It is important to move forward with it and to actually change things. As a sector we’re not just to point out what’s wrong, we’re actually here to change it. And that has to start with us as leaders. So I agree with you. So I think that those feelings that we had are important and they do, but they are only important if they make us do stuff.
Tessy Ojo:
Absolutely agree. I suppose that then leads us to kind of one of our thoughts for today about really your own personal or professional reaction to the Black Lives Matter. What, what did you feel about the whole agenda? What are you personally, professionally as an organisation, what are you guys doing?
Sarah Hughes:
You know, in my personal life, this is a very loaded issue. So it’s loaded for a number of reasons because, you know, I come from a mixed heritage family the experience of racism and discrimination and hatred and violence is very close to home. You know, we we’ve had direct experiences of that, you know, so my first reaction was one of pain and anxiety and worry for my friends and family and a real sort of sense of this feels like a tipping point. And you know, that kind of fear of actually people are really at risk today. Right now, I was gonna just mention this, you know, I bring up my children to understand the notion of privilege and racism, and we talk about them. My children are very young and, you know, I’ve, I’ve always sort of wondered sometimes, am I going too far? Do you know, I don’t, I, you know, I don’t want them to feel like, you know, they can’t enjoy their own lives as children who are, who are privileged, but I, I, I also don’t want them to not know that. So when the Black Lives Matter, thing came along, my daughter particularly was completely overwhelmed by it. And I was really struck by how far thinking she is, as opposed to I am as a 45 year old woman. And that was very striking. So personally it’s been a big deal in my household. And it continues to be a big deal in my household. I think at work, we had a, you know, we’re a small organisation. I think it’s fair to say that we’re not the most diverse organisation.
Sarah Hughes:
And we have a small number of Black staff. I suppose my first thing was to acknowledge this with the team that this had happened and to create a space, to think and talk about it. And we had a very painful conversation collectively, which was, you know, and again, you know, Black colleagues feeling really worn down, you know, exhausted by it. And then we’re sitting there going, are you okay? And I actually think it’s really difficult to, you know, for them to feel really cared for and supported in that situation because they’ve heard it before. You know, so bearing that in mind, I was very cautious about it not feeling performative, that I shared a depth of how I was feeling some of what I’ve said today. I recounted to the staff and said, I feel, you know, I’m accountable and I take that accountability seriously. We set up initially a equality and diversity group and the group members very quickly said, no, we need, this is anti-racism. So we focused on that. And we’ve got a program of works. We’re working on we’re, co-producing a statement. And I was very clear that we didn’t want to put anything out on social media very quickly, because I felt like we needed to really think internally about what we meant by these words. And did you know, could I look at every member of staff and say, they’ve resonated with this and they’re going to stand by it. And I felt that there was work to be done. So we’re in the middle of that work now. It continues to be very painful. And I go into these meetings every time feeling, feeling like I need to be humble, feeling like I need to be open feeling like I need to lead the charge because, you know, I I’m the boss, you know, I need to lead the charge here.
Sarah Hughes:
I need to be very, I need to really demonstrate that I, that I understand what a priority it is. Then we set about a number of other things too. You know, we spoke to our board about it. Our board were incredibly supportive, you know, we’ve had a number of reflection groups. So I very quickly, I’ve got a great group of peers around me, you two, and others where I could, you know, safely explore and talk about this stuff. So took that opportunity and very quickly felt that was incredibly important. And in the mental health space, we’ve actually set up proper kind of reflective learning sets. There’s about 18 mental health chief executives, and we’re divided up into smaller groups to do some of this reflection together. And some of that is about the fact that we in mental health absolutely have always nine, or certainly I’ve always known that racism can equal mental illness and there was a direct correlation. And so we feel that it’s not just about our internal learning and shifting to being an anti-racism organisation in, in a true form, but also that we know in the mental health space and sector and in society, that if we don’t actually deal with this, then we’re making a large proportion of our people mentally ill.
Polly Neate:
I’m just going to say there’s a lot of that that reminds me quite a lot of, some of the conversations we’ve had at Shelter. And that, you know, if we’re a social justice organisation, which we absolutely say we are, then anti-racism is something that is absolutely intrinsic to being a social justice organisation. You know, we have to recognise that we’ve got a lot of work to do then to even be the social justice organisation that we claim to be. And there’s that dichotomy as a leader, isn’t there because you were talking about you know, so I’m the boss, I have to lead the charge, but you also have to be humble. And there is that kind of, it requires a really particular skill set as a leader, I think, to do both of those things well, and I think that’s a really big challenge actually, to us, as CEOs.
Tessy Ojo:
One of the things that’s come through is that we, there is an ecosystem that needs to be changed, there’s a, this has to be bigger than our individual organisations. The thing that I suppose brought all of us into the sector is that need to, that need to create a society that’s fair for all, but what’s coming through is as leaders, we owe it to society that we fix this problem, which means in some sense, our mission should be bigger than what our organisational mission is. How do we, as leaders a) see this as a bigger mission than just our individual organisations, b) who holds us accountable?
Sarah Hughes:
That is such an important question. And actually I define myself as a civil society leader because I do see that kind of bigger piece. My specialism is mental health but I know that it exists within a complex ecosystem of so many other factors. And therefore, I feel personally that I feel that my role as a charity leader is to always have your eye on your own thing, but an eye that sort of roaming around all the time on what the other issues are. I’ve always felt that connection is really important. And also the politics of all of this stuff is so important. I think there is something about that, that social responsibility that is signed into, you know, that is weaved into our job descriptions. And, and sometimes when I see chief execs of charities or leaders not taking that mantle, it always surprises me.
Polly Neate:
I was so relieved when we did our, when we made our statement at Shelter in support of Black Lives Matter, which happened because our Black staff really demanded it of us and demanded that it should not just be performative, but I was very relieved that our board didn’t say this isn’t really about housing or homelessness. I do know that there were conversations like that with quite a few boards around the sector. And so I, I really agree with what you’re both saying that as civil society leaders, we believe in something wider than our individual causes. And I agree we have a role, we have responsibility to try to change the world we live in. But when you said it’s in the job description, actually literally it isn’t. Not in mine. The accountability point that Tessy raise though, who holds us accountable for that stuff is the right question because it isn’t actually in our job description.
Sarah Hughes:
And I think it’s really interesting cause I would like to see it in the job description. I would like to see it as much more of an accepted fact of civil society leadership. I guess one of the ways I feel I’m held accountable is by my peers. And I think I’ve developed a group of peers around me who help me with that, who hold me to account who challenge, who will ask me, well, what are you thinking about this? Have you engaged with that campaign? Or, you know, what’s your position? I feel like that happens very informally, but the issue of accountability I think is really tricky because our boards do… And because of obviously the charities act, et cetera, the whole notion of lobbying and all of that kind of stuff, I think boards do become very anxious about in many respects. I’m very aware that actually to be an activist leader is also to engage in something that’s quite risky.
Tessy Ojo:
This could also be part of the privilege of being a leader, with every privilege, most come responsibility. We all hold privileged jobs. There should be, should there be an element of responsibility that says, actually we demand more. We the people, even if it’s not in your memo, so if it’s not in your JD, but we, the people demand that with your privilege you also take the responsibility to always seek to fix society.
Sarah Hughes:
Well, you know, it’s sort of sneakily, we put into our mission and our values, isn’t it. We, I think as organisations, we sort of sneakily put in there, you know, something about our values of courage and bravery and that we’re here to challenge the, you know, in my, in my set, in my situation, you know, the equality and justice around mental health. And so, but it’s a given in order to do that, you have to be robust and challenging. And ACEVO I think has done a really great job of leading the charge and, and thinking about how do we marry all of this stuff up together? You know, Vicky really helps us to think about how do you bring together what is essential in as part of our roles around the activism piece and the governance that, that often challenges our ability to do that? Legally,
Polly Neate:
So I think I absolutely a hundred percent agree with you Tessy, that we are in very privileged roles. And with that privilege comes responsibility. And there’s also relative privilege within that as well. So there are privileges that larger, more wealthy organisations have, for example, the others don’t, there are privileges that white organisations or white led organisations have that Black or Black led organisations sometimes don’t. So I think we need to look at our house in order as a sector, but I also, wouldn’t like to run away with the idea that as a sector, as a whole, at the moment, we are carrying out those responsibilities, because I, frankly, I don’t think we are, I think some within the sector are striving to, and I agree with your shout-out to Vicky from ACEVO there. I think she is trying to get the sector. And so people like Sue Tibballs, from Sheila McKechnie as well, trying to get the sector to accept the responsibility that comes with our privilege as leaders, but as a whole, I think the gravitational pole of conservatism, with a smaller c, the establishment is what I mean, I guess, part of the establishment and that, that is a real risk to us fulfilling that responsibility that we’re talking about.
Sarah Hughes:
I think that goes along with the complacency that I was talking about earlier on, which is, you know, for a long time, I would say for the last decade, I’ll just explore that, you know, in order to achieve change in policy, there’s been a shift in the way charity leaders do business. So we, we used to have the idea of we’d be in two separate tents on the same camping field. And then we’ve started to share a tent for quite a long time. And by sharing the tent with government and other decision makers that can muddy the waters around, you know, really. I think we’ve all allowed that and seen that happen. And I’ve seen it happen in some senses over the last six months in a way that I think has really amplified those routes to influence et cetera. And so I think that there are some of us around the sort of charity space that are saying, you know, look, it’s time to leave the tent and probably go and camp in another field. I think that the time certainly for me has come where that really needs to be absolutely at the heart of some of the decisions about how we operate as an organisation.
Tessy Ojo:
Both of you, have you ever considered your own privilege and how you’ve seen your own privilege kind of play out and would you, could you give, share any examples?
Polly Neate:
Oh yeah. So I think the time probably that that happened, I was most challenged about that was actually when I was at Women’s Aid and it was in conversation about the relative privilege of me and my organisation compared to a much smaller organisation led by and for women of colour who were victims of violence. And I struggled very profoundly with that conversation. I found it incredibly difficult to fully accept what I was being shown about my organisation’s relative privilege, and the duty that we therefore owned to the other organisation. And because I felt in a vulnerable place, I don’t mean vulnerable because I was under attack or anything like that I mean vulnerable, literally because I was worried about my organisation. Because of that, that I really, really struggled to accept what I think now several years on, having processed that, I’m not joking, I’ve processed that conversation regularly over years… Because that’s what, when something really challenges you in that way and you feel yourself resistant, sometimes it does take years to really learn the lessons of it. I think my, from my personal life, my biggest example would be as a child. So I, my sister was adopted and she was half Bangladeshi and half Filipino. And I was on the bus with her. She was seven years younger than me. So I was like looking after her and somebody on the bus made a really disgusting racist remark about her. That was my first realisation of privilege ever.
Sarah Hughes:
When I was a child I was brought up to really understand my own privilege, even though I was born into poverty. I wasn’t born into the same poverty that my grandparents have been born into for instance, which was, you know, something on a, on a different level. And so my, my parents and my grandparents would always say some of the basic things that I took for granted. They didn’t have, you know, toilets, shoes, food. But I think a recent example is actually again, a professional example, well, I’ll give two. The first one is a very good colleague of mine who, you know, we’re close and we work really closely. I really respect him. He’s a man of colour, a psychiatrist. We were talking about, and this is about two and a half years ago, a joint project that we were working on. And I wanted us to use really assertive language. We were sort of encouraging the Royal College of Psychiatry to use the word racism in their statements about the consequences of racism. And they were, you know, resistant, you know, the r word as people were saying at that time. And I was getting really frustrated because I was saying that is what it is. Why, why aren’t we using the words? And I remember my colleague turning to me and said, it’s easy for you to say. And I was so shocked by that. And what he meant was he’s been using that word all his life, and he’s being told how awful he is for doing it and how, how awful it makes everybody feel.
Sarah Hughes:
And, you know, using the race card, you know, all of this stuff that he’s had to endure. And then I come along and say, we absolutely need to be using that word in every conversation we’re having. It needs to be written down in our position statement and so on. And of course I don’t have to bear the consequences of that. So whilst I think I know that from my mixed heritage and all of that kind of stuff, it, it doesn’t give me permission. Again, it’s that not centering yourself, but equally recognising that I will always have the privilege of being an ally. And then the second example, and this was really powerful. I went to San Francisco a couple of years ago on my own for a bit of work. I had a little time before I had to come home. So I got on a ferry and went over to Alcatraz and had a little bit of a wander around and bought my children back what I thought was quite funny at the time. Bearing in mind, my daughter would have been about eight. And on this sign, it says we will provide you food, water, and shelter. Everything else is a privilege. And I showed it to my kids. And my daughter literally looked me in the eye and said, mum, you know, very well, thatall of those things are a privilege because not everybody in the world has those. And I literally went oh dear God. I thought my head was going to fall off and explode because I just thought she’s so right. The issue of privilege is, is pretty much in, in the fabric of everything, everything. And I’m very aware now of my privilege coming from a very working class background,coming to a situation where I’m a chief exec. I own my own home. I’m very aware of that. And sometimes that really, it sticks.
Polly Neate:
What about you, Tessy?
Tessy Ojo:
So I, I’m really lucky, I suppose I see privilege in different ways. I’m really lucky to have been born into a very privileged family. My father was an ambassador and so there was privilege all around me growing up. But I think on the other hand, my mother was a head teacher. I suppose one thing that I learned very, very early on was that it was a privilege to be in the family that I was. It’s really weird because you knew you had privilege, that word was a word that I literally grew up with because I was constantly reminded as a child that I wasn’t entitled to what I had and I had to earn it. Simple example, during COVID. I, I intentionally did not ever maybe tweet a picture of my garden because I was aware not everyone had a garden. And therefore life was great. I had my own space. I can work from here for ever If I have to. I’m aware that’s not everybody’s case. And therefore it’s almost always remembering, almost always being aware of your privilege, but also seeking a way to share that privilege, which is kind of going to lead on to my next question. But before I ask that question, I’m going to share an example of sharing of privilege. So I have personally worked with or loved a certain number of brands for various reasons. And for many years, various brands have always asked me to work with them in an official brand capacity. And as a result, I will get some benefit like income. And I’ve always felt really, really uncomfortable with this, firstly, because I know I’m privileged to have a great job and I have an income and it just, it didn’t feel right.
Tessy Ojo:
So I’ve always said no.This year I kinda, it kind of made sense. I thought, do you know, what I’m going to do. Right. Finally, one of the brands I thought, you know, I love your values. And I presented to them this option. I would be a brand ambassador if all of my, this, all of the money, any commission that is due to me, if I can gift it to various charities. It took them a while to think it through because they’ve never done a partnership like that. And finally they saidyes. And to me, that was just being able to do that was, I’m so excited about that brand. I have been shouting about it all of last week. Finally, I get to be able to, to do this. It’s again, using that privilege of having people say, we want to give you this. Actually, don’t give it to me. I want to share that privilege with someone else. Which comes to my question, how can we share privilege more?
Sarah Hughes:
Well, I mean, one of the things I’m always sort of reflecting on is that notion of you know, it’s the Malcolm X thing about recognizing the power in everybody. I really struggle with the word empower. It doesn’t feel right, but there’s something about recognizing the power in others, it’s about giving people that space, sharing the privilege of space, sharing the privilege of, of leadership and decision making. And so I like the idea of distributed leash leadership, particularly in my work in my organisation as a way of sharing that privilege. You know, so having those kinds of really systems or structures around that is quite important. But I think there is a, there is a ethical and deeply moral question there, which is, you know, how do we, within the context of our own lives, live out those values in a very deep and meaningful way, because as you were talking, using that example, I was thinking God the privilege of being offered something and the privilege of being able to turn down that money for you, you know, and thinking about all of those things, it’s very different for everyone. You know, I think there, there are some things that we can put in a code of practice in a leadership manual about how we can do this, but I also think it’s deeply personal and ethical, moral, and there’s something that you as an individual have to really work out and face up to what your privilege is and face up to what the obstacles are that, that stop you from sharing that privilege.
Polly Neate:
I spend quite a lot of time as a feminist, trying to get men to accept the idea of male privilege. And the idea of unearned rewards, I think is very difficult for people to accept. And talking about our dads. So my dad had a great saying, which is, you’re not special, you’re just lucky. I grew up in a very fortunate middle-class household and my dad was very successful, but he actually, even as a sort of white man of his generation understood very well that there was a huge amount of unearned privilege that had got him to the place where he was. He really wanted us to understand that as children. It’s very challenging as a parent because we’re very prone to tell our children how special they are, but we do have to tell them a bit of how lucky they are as well. But I do think that that, that recognition in ourselves that of the level of unearned privilege that we have, if you manage to acknowledge that, then you automatically feel the need to share it.
Tessy Ojo:
If I could ask you both one question, maybe Sarah, Sarah, I’ll kick off with you, one practical way that anyone listening can share privilege.
Sarah Hughes:
I think there is something about, so if you’re a leader, you know, mentoring and those sorts of, you know, very, those, those relationships that are very much sharing, you know, your knowledge and experience is really important and tangible. I think it’s hard to know actually that’s a really important question. I feel like I’ve got to go and really reflect on that because I think it’s something about a way of being, and that’s hard to be practical about, you know, this is about a philosophy. Trying to really share that leadership focus, sharing the power in the organisation, how you do that, the mechanisms, how you do that, I think are very much about your ability to take responsibility and own your own privilege and where it goes wrong.
Tessy Ojo:
One of the quick ways I intentionally picked up and I keep doing is to open up networks, like really make it so inclusive. And I’m introducing people to people, and I’m making those connections. And if I’m in a conversation and someone says, Oh, I’m just looking for someone with digital skills. Immediately I’m thinking, oh gosh, I’m going to, and it’s that constantly, because I know that I have that privilege of being, having a platform that maybe I hear more than other people hear. I’m able to just open up those networks.
Polly Neate:
I think that’s a brilliant one. And one of mine was just going to be consciously gather ideas from people who work at more junior levels in the organisation and then always credit the ideas, always credit the ideas. Sarah, thank you. What a great conversation.
Sarah Hughes:
I feel like I need a lie down! Thanks both
Polly Neate:
Thank you so much, Sarah
Tessy Ojo:
Thank you.
Sarah Hughes:
Thank you.
