Welcome to Leadership Worth Sharing, a podcast in which ACEVO chief executive Jane Ide chats with civil society leaders about their professional experiences, challenges, wellbeing, and their journeys in the sector.
In this episode, Jane Ide talks to Nicci Russell, CEO of Waterwise, about leading a campaigning organisation, getting involved with ACEVO’s climate action group, becoming a 4 day week organisation and why learning to jive is better than dancing the Argentine tango.
Transcript
Jane Ide
So I’m delighted to welcome Nicci Russell, member of ACEVO, good friend to ACEVO and chief executive of Waterwise. Nicci, Hello.
Nicci Russell
Hello, thank you for having me.
Jane Ide
Oh, delighted and great way to start our 2024 series of ACEVO podcasts. So thank you very much for being with us. So Nicci, I wonder if you could just introduce yourself a little bit. Tell us a little bit about how you came to be the Chief Exec of Waterwise and what that role is about and what the organisation does.
Nicci Russell
Sure, we’re an environmental campaigning organisation. And specifically, our vision is that water is used wisely every day everywhere by everyone. So water efficiency in the UK, that’s what we do. And any one time there’s between about seven and 10 of us, so we are quite small. Other hats that I wear are I’m chair of a national charity called Power2, which is all about young people, children and young people releasing the power within them does fantastic work. And their CEO Julie, it’s also a member of ACEVO and ACEVO is what match made us and brought us together literally. So those are two hats. I’m also a school governor. I’m a mum of three. And I moved few years ago from London to a lovely market town called Whitchurch in North Shropshire.
Jane Ide
I’ve always immediately struck by the old phrase, if you want something doing ask a busy woman, I think you clearly know how to fill your time. And I’d be really interested to explore with you a little bit later about that point about not just being in a paid role in the sector, but also being a trustee and a chair, and how that impacts on your leadership and how you draw the best out of out of both of those those sides of the conversation, so to speak. But tell us a little bit more. How did you come to be at Waterwise and what were you doing… How long have you been there, first of all.
Nicci Russell
Nearly seven years. I actually co founded it back in 2005. I was Policy Director then. And my colleague was the first managing director. We called it then. So I worked there for a few years. And then I went off to OfWat, which I’ll talk about but before that, my routing was through policy and politics. So after university, I volunteered for a year for an MP in Cambridge where I had graduated and I was volunteering, claiming housing benefit and unemployment benefit and living in college, which nearly blew their mind because they never had that interaction before. And then I worked for an MP that just won a by election. And then I worked for Margaret Beckett for many years. So Margaret Beckett had been the leader when John Smith died of the Labour Party, and I worked for her just after Tony Blair had won. So she effectively became a backbencher. She had no shadow cabinet support and she had loads of mail coming in. Thank you, Margaret, for everything you’ve done. So got my foot in the door, worked for her as Shadow Secretary of State for Health, Shadow Secretary of State for trade and industry, and then we got into government. And then I was special advisor. So which is entirely different, some of your listeners may know to being in opposition because in opposition, you do everything you make the travel arrangements, you book, your book the room, you write the speech, you photocopy it, and then you know, fax it what we used to do in those days. And in government. It’s amazing because we first of all, Margaret as my boss was shadow Secretary of State for trade and industry, we brought in the minimum wage, oh my God, how amazing. And then she was leader of the house so loads of stuff about parliamentary procedure. Millennium Bug was one of our an absolute triumph. I’m sure you will agree!
Jane Ide
Absolutely, because we didn’t we didn’t suffer, I was thinking about the Millennium Bug only the other day that shows my age, doesn’t it? Yes, younger, younger listeners might need to Google this in order to find out what we’re talking about.
Nicci Russell
So after that, Margaret was shadow Defra. So she came into Defra, Tony Blair said to her right, Margaret, I’m forming a new department bringing agriculture and environment together. And I want you to lead it. And I was one of two special advisers. So this comes into the point I was making about the contrast from being in opposition because we had an incredible department of extremely talented civil servants, one of whom became my husband. That’s another story. And I was there to be the link between Margaret and the department, between her and the NGOs and between her and number 10. And it was just such a privilege and really incredible and I did that for many years. Then I did my third general election with a toddler in tow, and then I knocked it on the head and co founded Waterwise. And so that’s how I ended up at Waterwise. Then I wanted to work for ofwat, which is the economic regulator for the water sector. And I kept getting headhunted and not quite getting the role. And what we worked with the then CEO was that I didn’t I wasn’t able to tick the boxes that you need in the civil service by having one big department. So she said come in on secondment, and sort out the thing we need you to sort out and then we’ll advertise the job, which I did I applied for it and got it and actually… how old I was then, maybe early 40s and but that was my first proper interview for a job. It’s sort of been iterative, you know, just kind of right place, right time kind of thing. So that was very validating. And then after a few years there worked on all sorts of things, including environment legislation, Wales strategic approach to Wales. I came back to Waterwise, in the meantime, I was on their board. And I came back to Waterwise as a CEO. And the rest is history. So there’s a lot to tailor my journey to leadership and just wearing the Waterwise hat. And the one thing I will say, because I know this has been a really long answer, before we go on to the next bit of the conversation is, I wish that I had found ACEVO in my first year because I had an incredibly tough first year, mopping up all sorts of things I inherited, four months in, we almost went under, my birthday, I wrote a recovery plan. Suffice to say, I had really being honest, very little experience of management accounts and didn’t really understand them before I came in as CEO. And I learned on the job, which I wouldn’t recommend, but I certainly know how to do it now. Wrpte the recovery plan and they said, Okay, Nicci, we put our trust in you to keep the doors open. I had people’s mortgages, you know, all of that. So, so I did that. And I survived it and Waterwise is in a really strong position now. But I wish I’d had that CEO in Crisis Line at the time that would have been…
Jane Ide
It’s interesting you say that, not particularly about the CEO in crisis line, because I think I think we do hear that a lot from people that they, if they didn’t find us early on in their chief exec tenure, they kind of wish they had. But that’s, you know, we’re always glad to be there for people whenever they find us. But I was struck listening to you that there’s there is a big difference isn’t there between being in that? policymaking? Government? You know, you, without question of a doubt, there is some power and there’s never as much power as people think, because it’s always about how you make things happen. But you’re in a very, very different sort of place to where you are being the chief executive of a charity, we’re actually whatever the cause is, and however powerful that campaigning is, the day to day is exactly that. It’s management accounts, and it’s HR, and it’s, you know, fixing the toilets or sorting out, you know, whatever crisis it is that happens to be on the doorstep that day. So how, now that you’re looking back at that seven years into the role of a chief executive, how do you feel you navigated that change? And what would you what would you say to others who are who are in that process right now or thinking about that process?
Nicci Russell
That’s such a great question. The first thing I would say is use your chair, mine is absolutely incredible, he was very different to me. He and my husband became the most important people in my life for that year. So use your chair, know that this will end. Because I remember saying to my husband, he’s got a lot of mentions, actually, in this podcast, he will have to listen to it. I remember saying to him, when I fix this, I am leaving, I cannot do this anymore. And he said, What? When you fix it, stay in enjoy it. So know that it will end like all bad times in life, you know, it will end and probably it will end because you fixed it, you can do this. Resilience is really important. Because when you’re trying to when you’re on that journey, it’s not just one thing. There’s so many things all the time. And one of the things that was really important to me at that time was keeping up the external energy, the smiley face, to get the income coming in again, at the same time as knuckling down and fixing it internally. And really, you could put all your energy on that internal peace, because, you know, there aren’t enough hours in the day for that. But if you’re not doing that smiley face outside as well, and bringing in, you know, the stakeholder engagement stuff, then it’s not gonna be sustainable. So that is definitely a lesson. I think that was what was one of the things that was really key to it.
Jane Ide
You started off talking about working with your chair. And that is something that we spend a lot of time at ACEVO talking about that dynamic, that relationship and the governance relationship that sits at the heart of our sector. But I know that Waterwise isn’t actually registered as a charity. So can you talk a little bit about what the form is for your organisation? And what difference that makes being, you know, as opposed to being a charity and how you make that governance work in your, in your context?
Nicci Russell
Yeah, so we aren’t a charity. And we are always actively considering whether we should be. There are lots of arguments in favour of doing that. But one of the arguments against is how long it takes how much work and I’ve spoken to a lot of people that have been on that journey. So it’s worth it. But don’t underestimate that the journeys. Okay, I’ve been on one of those journeys already, maybe, maybe not quite yet. The structure we have is company limited by guarantee we’re not for profit. There isn’t a corporate structure for that. But our objects, the public service, and any profit we make at the end of the year goes straight back into reserves or staff, the work we do. So we originally came out of the water sector and Jane you and I are old enough to remember in those days, people used to set up organisations to avoid mandatory targets. You know, the water sector at the time, also they cared about water efficiency. So we were set up from the water sector with close links to the water, water UK, the trade body. And I think at the time, that was just the easy way to do it, we just set it up a Companies House, no particular driver, you know, for doing that, intellectually, I think it was more just let’s do it. And let’s do it this way. Overtime, we have realised that’s that that means we have to often kind of explain ourselves in a long sentence rather than just oh, okay, you are a charity, we get that. So that is one of the disadvantages of not being a charity, we are able to be probably a bit more free to focus. I also chair a charity. So I’m familiar with those frameworks. I mentioned that I chair a charity, one of the major changes, I guess, is that well, we’re not we’re not regulated by the Charity Commission, we are regulated by the same kinds of regulates that regulate industry, small, small businesses. I am also a full board member, which I know in charities, the CEO isn’t. Other than that, and the day to day business really very little difference. It’s more about the statutory responsibilities, I think, and also access to funding pots. There were some that will only allow businesses, some that will only allow charities and but that framing one where people immediately get who we are, I think that a powerful one and raising our voice is one of my biggest challenges and the people that know us, we’re really well respected but we need to make that circle wider.
Jane Ide
I’m really interested to pick up that point as well about the raising your voice, because that was what I was thinking as you were talking. Waterwise is a campaigning body, you are a campaigner. There’s no question about that. We’ve talked about that previously, as well. And it comes through in everything you said so far, and we are in a general election year, who knows when it’s going to happen, but it’s definitely going to happen. And something we’ve been talking about a lot of ACEVO in public, certainly, and as well as you know, with members privately is the challenge for particularly for campaigning organisations. So I think for all of us in the sector, particularly those that work in those bits of the sector that are, how do I put it, the kind of on the front edge of being weaponized by politicians for want of a better phrase. So those are working around homelessness, working around refugee rights, working around climate working around, you know, some of those some of those other areas as well. And how, over the last two, three years, particularly perhaps a bit longer than that. There’s been this, this narrative, I suppose around, play nice, you know, don’t say the wrong thing. Don’t put your head above the parapet. It’s very risky. And we’ve seen some trustee boards being quite risk averse in that, we’ve seen others actually saying that we’re going to claim our space, and we’re going to use it. And I’m just interested for you as a campaigning body and as you say, campaigning body that is not regulated by the Charity Commission. So therefore has perhaps different pressure points in this. How are you navigating that space? And and how do you see that playing out over over an election period pre and post election perhaps
Nicci Russell
It’s such a great question. And I think for us, it is less about what we can and can’t say to politicians to power in that sense. Because we aren’t we aren’t subject to those same anti lobbying rules on that very controversial phrase that charities are. For us being careful about what we say is more about stakeholders and funders. So we know that because we asked people that one of the things that’s valued about us is our independence. So we flex that independence, for example, we might be saying Hold on one sec, you need to do more than this, even though they are one of our major funders, and we are saying to the regulator, but our approach has always been That’s brilliant, what you’ve done. But really, you need to think about doing this too. We haven’t been a kind of direct action kind of an NGO. There’s space for that. That’s just not what we are. So we’re less restricted in what we can say. And I’ve kind of grown up in politics, which helps me anyway, so I’m instinctive about things like purdah. And I’m like, What do you mean, you can’t some people say you can’t even fart in purdah, you know, hold on a minute, I was a special advisor, that’s not relevant. So some of it is instinctive to me, but as an organisation, we are freer than we would be if we were a charity. So I should have mentioned that earlier. Actually, that’s a really good point.
Jane Ide
And picking up on your campaigning role. And particularly, you know, Waterwise’s commitment as being part I suppose, in the ecosystem of the environmental campaigning world. You’ve been very much part of our ACEVO climate member working group. How effectively as a sector do you think we are addressing the issues of climate change and what more should we be doing?
Nicci Russell
Well, I think ACEVO is really brave on this. And equity, diversity and inclusion as another example. So the statements of leadership that ACEVO put out, you know, you can’t just look at this and sign it you have to think: Okay, have I done this stuff, come back to it six months later, now I can sign it. So I think that working group has been a game changer. And for us as an environmental campaigning organisation who were doing a few bits and bobs on our internal footprint, environmental footprint, it really got us thinking: Hold on a minute, we need to be doing loads more. Now we’re doing loads. As I mentioned, we’re only small, you know, there’s sort of up to about 10 of us, we all work from home. So it’s more about digital footprint of travelling and events and that kind of thing, and procurement, things like that. But I think that that has been a really brave set of actions coming out of that working group, and I think ACEVO has taken them really seriously, it brings brilliant speakers into the wider membership. And the group itself is full of a whole range of different shapes and sizes of CEOs and organisations. And that has really helped us to think to land some of the stuff. Having said that, we still don’t get as many people signing up to it as we would like. But I think I’ll call out Janet Thorne here, because she’s been a member of it. And she’s really brave on this stuff. And one of the things that she’s always talking about is okay, we need to, we need to make it easy. Start with the easy bits, it feels it’s just like climate change climate emergency in our everyday lives, you know, start with the bits you can do, and that I think the working group has really, really helped with that. And Janet is a really big part of that.
Jane Ide
Yes, I would, I would thoroughly endorse that message, I have to say, having worked very closely with Janet in various different ways. But I suppose there’s, there’s something that strikes me about climate. And in a way, it reminds me a little bit of where we were on racism and equity and diversity a few years ago. And we haven’t quite shifted the dial on on this one yet, which is that on the one hand, I think it’s quite difficult for lots of people to know what to do. And particularly if you’re in a small organisation, in a hybrid organisation, it’s not really about measuring your carbon footprint anymore, is it, it’s got to be about more than something else. And I think it’s also about… this is something Janet writes about and talks about very articulately, which is about how do you make the link between climate, climate justice and the work of your charity, if your charity is to look after an arts centre and a community building? Or if you’re, if your charity is about supporting victims of domestic violence or whatever, it’s how do you make that link with climate? And how do you make it part of what you’re doing on a daily basis when there are so many other calls on a chief execs time? Have you got any thoughts about that from your own experience? Or just as somebody who works in this space?
Nicci Russell
I have got some thoughts about some specific things we do. Which I’ll come on to. But I’m also thinking about a few years ago, we did a campaign, which was hashtag I save water because, and mine was all about social justice. It was because I think we all know who’s going to suffer when we start running out of water, right? It’s going to be the people without privilege. So we do do something about that we’re driving the sector towards change. There’s a thing in our sector called regional water resource management plans, which are actually really important, because it’s the first time we’re looking at this by region, what happens when we’re actually running out of water? You know, how are we going to fix that gap? And we set out manifesto for those plans, and we checked them against it afterwards and published and that included what are you doing for social justice, climate adaptation in a socially just way? We also ask everybody that speaks at our conference to talk about the impact on social justice, we have commitments to wider voices at our events. So we have for example, for our events, we have, we won’t have all white, all male or all England panels, because we are a UK organisation. And we make, we make sure we stick to that. And we’ve started to measure the equity, diversity and inclusion character, the diversity characteristics of attendees and speakers at our events, because then we can work out what gaps we need to fill. So we did want to develop a whole work stream on this. And then we thought, actually, that’s just embedded in everything we do. And we are quite good at challenging ourselves.
Jane Ide
And one of the thing that strikes me, and you’ve mentioned a few times that Waterwise is a small organisation, I think you said nine or 10 people and having my experience of leadership has always been in or nearly always been in, in very small organisations. And one of the things that’s a joy about that is you can actually move quite quickly, can’t you, if you if you have a good idea, you can talk about it with 10 people around you. If you all agree it, then you can go on and do it. I’m really interested to hear a little bit more about you signed up for the initial pilot at the four day working week. And I remember having a conversation with you about that probably not long after I joined ACEVO so probably about about 12, 13 months ago. Tell us more about that. Tell us about why you did that. And what you’ve learned from doing that.
Nicci Russell
You’re gonna have to cut me off at some point because this is a favourite… I’ve been following the four day week for a while and just in case people don’t know it’s basically 100% of the pay for 80% of the hours. It’s not compressed hours, it’s four days for five days pay. So I’ve been following it and seeing that governments, big organisations were doing it, it all looked really great. But I didn’t have the confidence really to take it forward, because in many ways, it’s counterintuitive. And then my well being champion in the team said to me, have you seen four the week global are doing a UK trial. So I signed us up to it. And Laura always says it’s the best email she ever sent. So we went on the trial, and we had loads of support from four the week global who are themselves a not for profit. And then we embarked on the trial. And I’ve got some learning points, which I’d love to come back to because I do get lots of people wanting to talk about it. So I’ve got a kind of top tips. When we started our six month trial. It was June, which was heading into high annual leave period, and there was a massive heatwave, drought. So we as a water efficiency organisation, we’re all over the airwaves. So it’s quite hard to suddenly lose a day from your week. While all of that was going on. We’re super proud of ourselves, we survived that. And we basically we co created it, we put in place some efficiency tools at organisational level and individual level. And we keep those fresh through training and sharing experiences. And we measured metrics at organisational level and individual level, retention, income expenditure, recruitment, sick days, wellbeing, all of those kinds of things. And then with our board, we decided to go actually for 12 months trial. So we carried forward the metrics that had been measured in the official trial for a whole year. And then we decided whether to go permanent and the metrics was so positive, wellbeing was already strong in in our team, it’s one of my big, big priority. In fact, I’ve always said that it’s my number one priority above water efficiency, which is my number two. So well being metrics went up from a really high base, income was even better than against budget in a comparative year, expenditure too was very controlled, you know, there were no extra costs. And our impact was still really easy to see, it was a bit of a no brainer. We have the conversation with board. Look, are there any strategic risks that you think we’re missing? No, okay, great, because it’s half an operational decision and half a strategic one, only, either or? So we went for it. So now we’re permanent fou day week organisation. And we are so so proud of it. To be in the vanguard, obviously, it’s brilliant on an organisational and personal level as well. People that we’re recruiting now are saying, wow, you know, that’s definitely drawn me it’s, it’s great for retention, including of me, and it helps us get our voice heard wider because we’ve been talking to everybody about it. Today programme has had me on occasionally to talk about water efficiency, but way more often to talk about four day week. People that wouldn’t normally have heard about us are hearing of us. So that’s a very long intro. And but just to say it, we did the trial, which was key because I wouldn’t have had the confidence to answer even my own questions, let alone the ones the board might have without the comfort and the structure of a trial.
Jane Ide
And I’m really I’m really curious to know if you can remember the first conversation you had with your chair or with your trustees about this. What sort of reaction did you get in the first instance?
Nicci Russell
I told my chair, and she thought it was a great idea. Then I told my board. And by that time, I just started to think maybe I should have run it past them. Not for decision. Just, you know, a bit of input. Anyway, so they were like, Oh, wow, well, this is exciting. Let’s see how it goes. So they were all really positive. But very much as I say, you know, they had, they weren’t involved in the trial at a practical level. And at one point, I brought a brilliant guy called Alex Pang who works for four day week global, he came and spoke to them on Zoom, and answered some of their questions. They were really supportive of the principle and they just wanted to make sure it worked in practice. And actually one of my learning points is I should have set out measures of success sort of governance framework at the beginning for them. I think, too. We put that in place halfway through. We were already measuring but specifically for the board for our organisation that would have been useful.
Jane Ide
What would you share with others if they were thinking about going down this route? As I know, some are not not everybody by any means I know. There’s lots of question marks that people have about, about how you particularly I think for those who are in more frontline services who are delivering five day a week services or seven day a week services or whatever it might be. And there’s all sorts of legitimate questions, but what are your sort of tips for people to think through? And what have you learned from that? And what have you learned as a leader as well, not just about how to implement a four day working week but what have you learned as a leader in that process?
Nicci Russell
Um, in terms of what I’ve learned as a leader, I think it fits well with the size of my organisation, my style of leadership because we’ve kind of done it together. We co-created the tools we were going to use, I think in a big organisation where you have to think about have you got teams that work differently to each other that might be more complicated. But what I’ve learned as a leader is that it’s okay to be brave, and it often pays off. And in this case, it really, really has. One of my top tips is, this is a really important one, I think you can’t, you have to completely change how you work, you cannot just lose a day and carry on as normal. Because imagine the stress, I mean, none of us are sitting twiddling our thumbs anywhere in this sector, are we? People are so busy, workload is the biggest challenge, probably that and funding. So you have to change how you work. Otherwise, it won’t work. And everybody will get more stressed rather than less. And by that I mean, efficiency tools, like one of the easy things, we cut all our meetings half an hour, you save so much time. And I use Pomodoro as an individual tool. So I don’t do my emails all through the day now and get distracted, I’d put specific slots in the diary, 25 minutes, focus, five minutes, chill, and then sort of back onto something else so that they’re really all intuitive. None of them are kind of groundbreaking. But what you do is you put them in you stick to them, and you keep you keep refreshing them. Second thing I would say is do a trial. Contact four day week global. They’ve got loads of global trials, and they’re very kind about UK people joining Australian trials or because the trial is what gives you… I mean, it’s literally a trial, you can try if it doesn’t work, drop it. But also you can test things as you go along. So that I would definitely recommend that people do that. So change how you work, do a trial. And the third one is always just go for it. Because you might have lots of people at dinner parties or other meetings saying but how does it actually work? What about X, Y, Z, ABCD and E? Well, we’ve lived it and it does work so counterintuitive or not, you know, I would say go for it. And it’s very, very few of the organisations involved in the UK trial didn’t go permanent afterwards. And I think there were maybe a couple and they had specific issues.
Jane Ide
Well, you’re definitely an advocate and a champion. And I have to say as well, some of the things you were saying there about things like meeting disciplines, managing your own time. I think those are those are things that all of us as leaders in this sector would and do benefit from when we can introduce them regardless of whether it’s four days, five days or seven days a week, because we’re all, you’re right, everybody, everybody finds the work way expands beyond the the time or capacity we have available for it. I’d like to pick up as well, a little bit we said right at the beginning, you mentioned in your in your introduction, that you are a chair, you’re a trustee. How do you find that? I mean, first of all, how do you find that as an experience in itself? I know many of the people listening to me, many of our members in ACEVO are in that twin hatted space. I’ve been on both sides of the board table at different times. How do you find that that’s impacted on your day to day job as a leader?
Nicci Russell
Is invaluable. I’m always sharing experiences into Waterwise that I’ve picked up in, in Power2 and and vice versa. I think it’s it’s incredibly useful as a leader. It’s also given me more confidence, more insight into my own chair’s role. Yeah, well, we came we came together Julia and I through the ACEVO community noticeboard because I think one of us asked a question and then we emailed each other when I saw a video at the bottom of Julie’s signature, which was all about what Power2 does. And I said to her, your video made me cry. If you’re ever looking for trustees, let me know. And then they were so I applied and then I applied for chair. One of the things I’d say I guess about the journey is, even though I’ve done a lot as CEO, and I, you know, I’ve given evidence to select committees, I do a lot of media, I’ve chaired groups for government, lots of really kind of grown up things. When I was talking to Julie about whether I would apply for the chair role. I had a massive impostor syndrome moment. And I was very clear with Julie and the people that interviewed me that you know, this is new to me. I’ve been around governance for decades, but I’ve never actually been the chair of a long running thing. Of meetings, yes, or a group that is time limited. When I had that interview, actually, that is, I remember ringing my sister and saying that is the most unbelievable interview I’ve ever had, because I was 100% myself. And it turned out that was what they wanted. It was really, really brilliant. Yeah, I just love it. And the other thing I love about Power2 is that their work is right in the forefront, the battleground of social justice. Most of the young people they work with are living in poverty, the success stories of these young people coming out the other end that they by their own definition, they’re just kind of wow, I’m doing this now I’m doing that I’m seeing at school now. This is my career path is just so rewarding to me. And one of the things I said in my interview for the chair role was as a working class girl from a state school go into Cambridge University in the early 90s. I I’ve found that really hard. And I still find that class badge sometimes sort of affects me when I’m going into a meeting. So I think being chair, having that badge, knowing that I am not perfect by any means, but I know, you know, I know what I’m doing. And I’m doing okay. It’s, it’s, it makes me proud. And the other thing I would say is that Julia and I both know what it’s like to have a board that want to get too involved in stuff. Because by nature of having fantastic trustees with brilliant insight, it’s the chair’s role, we both know, to kind of manage that and make sure things are appropriate. So I think that is definitely an experience that we share that is useful going both ways.
Jane Ide
Yeah, I recognise the most of that I’m, I’m also a trustee and a chair. And I have to say I say frequently to people who are in a chief exec role. For me, it was transformative, becoming, going onto that side of the ball table, not least just on that basis of actually, you find yourself when you’re, then in your chief exec role, you think, actually, these people are not trying to make life difficult for me or throw me a challenge, you know, just for the sake of it, they genuinely want to understand something they genuinely want to contribute. And I’ve been very blessed over my seven years in the sector with some excellent trustees, but actually being on that side of the table. And as you say, understanding that role of the chair, understanding the role of the trustee board, and again, really interesting that you’re talking about that given that Waterwise isn’t constituted as a charity. And yet, you know, drawing on that same sort of dynamic and that understanding, I think, can be really important for people and I think could be really good fun as well, currently, and I’ve certainly never been to a trustee meeting in any of the organisations I’ve been involved with that I haven’t come back with something like that’s a really good idea, might do, might do that in the day job, you know, and so on and so forth. I certainly encourage people to think about it.
Nicci Russell
The other joy of chairing Power2 is that it came to me I came to it as it was already is a huge success story doing brilliantly, it got even stronger during COVID, even though its programmes are delivered face to face. Incredibly strong, staff survey, really strong culture, incredibly diverse. So there was a chairing job to be done, but not any kind of fixing job to be done.
Jane Ide
Yes, I think I think that’s, that’s a really powerful point as well. And, and I think those of us who are in a chief exec role, we understand that there is fixing to be done sometimes. And sometimes as trustees or as chairs, we can be really helpful and supportive. But knowing that boundary as well, and supporting our paid staff in those environments can be incredibly powerful. And certainly I think ACEVO members will know that we again, we talk a lot at ACEVO about that relationship between the chair and the chief exec, it is probably the single most important factor, I think, of a charity or nonprofit organisation success or otherwise, because if it works well, no matter what is being thrown at it, that organisation can be resilient, can be strong, can fly, if it’s not working… Well, no matter how easy the organisation is slightly it should we say it can become really quite challenging. And so yeah, I think there’s a huge amount to be said in that investment in that relationship. But that’s probably a topic for a whole different podcast. And we’ve covered so many things. And I feel like we could talk for hours. But I know we won’t have time to do that. But I’m really interested to know what do you see coming down the tracker? You know, you’ve been there for seven years. As I said, we are in a general election year, what do you see coming for you in your own leadership?
Nicci Russell
There were challenges in getting water efficiency into the mainstream. And I think they predate and will post date the election. And actually this government, although you wouldn’t necessarily think it from some other things it does from its specific kind of profile, how it identifies has put loads of measures in place on water efficiency, many measures that we’ve been waiting for, as a community for for governments, you know, years and years and years. So in policy wise, we always want more, there’s not enough but we’re we’re we’re actually in a in a pretty good place. Our challenge is building on that and bringing more efficiency into the mainstream because believe it or not across the UK, we’re already running out of water. Talked before about we know who’s going to suffer, who’s going to make those decisions about when the taps run dry, economy, society, the environment, hospitals, schools, you know, who, buses, who’s gonna get the water that day. It’s coming sooner than we think. So getting that into the heart of government, decisions on economic waste housing worth education, energy, climate emergency water efficiency needs to be part of this conversation. So that in the sense, I guess we’re in a nice position in a way we’ve got that challenge, but it isn’t necessarily massively related to the election. Having said that we are trying to think of things that are exciting for the new Secretary of State and minister, things we wanted to get done that they might think, Oh, I could do that in an election year. So for us, I guess I would say it’s an opportunity, for the wider environmental community, and we’re founding members of the blueprint for water, environmental NGO Coalition, for water efficiency specifically, I think I’m feeling quite optimistic.
Jane Ide
Well I was thinking you strike me as a very optimistic person anyway. Very upbeat, very positive. It’s brilliant. I often when we’re recording these podcasts, I ask our guests, you know, what is it and it gives you hope? What, what gives you resilience, shall we say, to meet the challenges? What do you think of the things that you most cherish, that help you protect your own well being and help you stay so upbeat and so positive about the work you’re doing?
Nicci Russell
People for a start, definitely the people the incredible people in my team, and I know you feel the same, Jane, because I’ve heard you talk about it lots of times. They are what gets me up and into work in the morning. It’s an absolute joy to work with them, the people at Power2, the Governors at the School, and all of the teachers, all of that just brings me so much hope and joy. I love family time engaging them in all the different bits of things with the children. And the work life balance is good. Because of the four day week, and I have this mix of things, as you said, you know, Power2, Water wise and school governor which the three, the three of those together really, really give me energy and positivity. And I absolutely love it. Yeah, the main thing I’ve written down here jive, I’ve booked into a jive class, which starts tonight. So when I listen to this back, I’ll probably be laughing thinking Well, that didn’t…
Jane Ide
I love that. Some might remember in a newsletter I wrote, about 12 months ago, about how we all need our opposite world. And the example that somebody had shared with me, which is I think the ultimate, which is learning the Argentine Tango, because when you’re dancing, the Argentine Tango, you cannot be thinking you cannot be doing you have to you have to let the music absorb you. You’re moving. You are absolutely not thinking about spreadsheets or board meetings.
Nicci Russell
You can’t smile.
Jane Ide
Well, true. Perharps the slight downside of it. But yeah, so I think learning the Jive sounds like an even better, better option.
Nicci Russell
I can’t find anyone to come with me. So I’m going by myself, which is…
Jane Ide
Oh Nicci, you should have asked I would love to, I’m not sure my knees are up to it. But the principle sounds really good. Oh, it’s been an absolute joy talking to you, Nicci, thank you so much. I’m sure everybody listening to this, I hope will be finishing with a big smile on their face. Because you really do bring a lot of positivity, a lot of joy, and some really interesting insights. And I think everything you’ve talked about, everything, you’ve talked about climate, everything, you’ve talked about campaigning, what you’ve talked about the relationship between policymaking and how we deliver our work. And the very interesting stuff around the four day week, and what that has meant for your organisation. I know we’ll, we’ll give a lot of food for thought for a lot of people. So thank you so much for your time. It’s been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. And thank you for being such a great advocate for ACEVO as well. Really, really value being part of our our tribe, and long may that continue. So thank you.
Nicci Russell
Thank you, Jane. I was gonna say right back at you. It’s an absolute joy to work with you and your team always. And I was looking forward to this and it was fun. So thank you.
Jane Ide
Brilliant. Thank you.
